1) "Favorites" (aka "Save to Faves"). Find reviewers or raters you like, and save them. Their recent activity (ratings and reviews only - nothing else) will show up prominently on the Community Home page. Even if you don't use Friends, this is a simple, less invasive way to personalize your Netflix site experience.
2) Rank. Someone at Netflix is the #1 most influential reviewer. We'll see who that is soon enough. But all of us have some ranking. Easy to ignore. Interesting to ponder. Based on a complicated set of factors, including number of highly helpful reviews (movies with few reviews provide most value), number of fans (people who have added you as a "Favorite"), and movies added to queues from your personal pages.
3) Subnav changes. Alas, the blog and other important items have been moved to the bottom of the page; Friends-related items are on the Friends & Faves page. Preferences is gone (yes, gone). Although you can still type in the URL and get to the page. We're phasing it out entirely, starting now.
4) Review Flags. The thresholds have been tuned, and very quickly you should see bad reviews going away and objectionable content managed. It's a community effect, so your vote alone doesn't change things -- but if disparate folks feel the same way, the automation should handle it properly.
5) Friends' Friends. Seeing who is connected to the people you are looking at is a core function of online communities, and will be fun and helpful for movie discovery. Only your real Friends are visible with a real name, and movie info like queue and rental history - this is unchanged. But now you can see their friends, or the friends of reviewers. This is new. They will only be identified by their anonymous nickname and avatar, but you'll see 'em.
RELATED TO THIS: we will be sending out an email to ALL Friends users tonight which will notify everyone of this change and give y'all time to tweak your nickname/avatar if you'd like. Because of your feedback on this blog, we're also making sure that you can select PRIVATE on your Profile page, and this will make you completely invisible outside of the Friends connections. This gives you an added level of comfort, I suppose (although being anonymous is pretty good comfort). Please read the terms of use if you have question. This is going to be a very safe network, but you convinced me that opting out is really important.
We're not done with Community just yet. Lots of improvement and new features still in the works. But i think with this release the shape of things is starting to take form.
219 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 219 Newer› Newest»It all sounds very cool, especially having the privacy option pertain to friends of friends.
With the preferences button gone, will there be another way to rename our friends, or will that option be lost completely? I find it pretty handy, but I supposed I could get used to my friend's real names.
I know it's sort of silly, but you should have a public top 5-10 rank of most helpful reviewers(total reviews matched with the helpful yes/no results), most active reviewers(total reviews), and top quantity raters (ie how many movies they have rated, but not necessarily reviewd, mine would be 2660 something.)
cheers, go netflix ftw
re: 2) Rank. Based on a complicated set of factors
-Why does it need to be complicated? Simple is total reviews related to yes/no helpful ratings.
(movies with few reviews provide most value)
-This will make it pretty easy to game the results...
number of fans (people who have added you as a "Favorite")
-sigh.
and movies added to queues from your personal pages.
-another moot statistic.
still, go netflix ftw
I can't wait to try everything out -- both the stuff I'm excited for and the stuff I'm not thrilled about.
@chrys: You can be influential without writing reviews. I, for one, have only written 2 reviews, but I have a ton of lists and I leave Notes for my friend on tons of movies. Also, if I choose a reviewer as my Fav because of similar taste, I'll start queueing movies off his page just because he rated them highly.
Sounds good.
A question on # 4 - You said: " and very quickly you should see bad reviews going away"
You mean non reviews and those with spoilers rather than reviews from Flixers who have given a low rating and unfavorable review. Right?
Netflix-
Lately, popular recently released movies are frequently listed as "Long Wait" and after waiting a while, I just can't wait any longer so I am forced to rent them from a local video store. I joined Netflix for its selection and price, I shouldn't be going to the video store every Tuesday for a popular title. Please get more copies of obvious hits like the new season of The Office, The Lives of Other, The Lookout. I already know that We Are Marshall, Knocked Up, and others that are definitely going to be popular rentals are going to force me to the video store which is unacceptable. Please be even better then you already are and fix this problem which I am sure affects most netflix subscribers
What if I don't want my friends to see my other friends? Maybe Judy doesn't mind being public, but I don't want Butch to know that Judy is my friend.
Am I missing something here or did my privacy just disappear? It seems like I have to abandon the Friends feature now. At least I got a warning, but... this sucks.
I received the email about the new "Friends" layout. I think its going to be a great new way to bring the community together.
@Anonymous #1 - I have had long wait movies ship immediately. If you don't keep it at the top of your list then you will obviously have to wait a long time to get a movie. I wonder how they calculate that a movie is a "short wait" or "long wait" but still have the movie ship out immediately. I do have one way to almost get the movie the day it comes out especially when its a popular movie... Return one of the movies the day before the movie you want comes out. Granted, the way Netflix should work is that it goes by how long you have had it in your queue, so if someone has it #1 for 3 weeks and you added it and put it #1 a week later, the person who has it in their list for 3 weeks has first dibs.
@Anonymous #2 - By the email that was sent, it looks like that if they put their profile as "private" only you will be able to see their information and no one else will know that Sue is a friend of yours.
@chawk - My understand with non-reviews and spoilers, will be that the reviews will still be there (spoilers are still reviews, but have more information than is needed), but will have a "header" stating that the review is a spoiler so people will know if they do not want to know a lot about the movie, then skip the review.
Amit -- why should my friend have to mark herself Private or change her nickname to protect MY privacy?
anon #2 - no one else will see Butch as Butch or Judy as Judy. The world will only see them by their anonymous nickname and avatar. No privacy lost
Anonymous #2, my mistake, i thought it was your friend that does not want people to know she is your friend. Basically, the person who does not want others to know that your part of someones friends list, would mark themselves as private.
Looking at your post again, I do see what your trying to say though. Because she made herself public, you can not say that this person should not be seen by this person. It is difficult to rule out specific people from showing your other friends. The only way I can think of is to have a hook specifying people from seeing your friends or at the very least have something that says "I do not wany my friends to see my other friends".
Anonymous #3 is also right.
@Anonymous #3 - I just realized how that may not be true too though. Even though you have a nickname and an anonymous avatar, butch may know judy's information therefore if butch sees judy's nickname and avatar, he will know that anon #2 is friends of judy's. one problem i can see is that if butch and judy were very close but had a bad falling out, anon #2 does not want to be in the middle of their grudge.
Just another one of my 2 cents.
Because this is a movie based network, I'm not very interested in who's number 1 reviewer.
But this,,,
1) "Favorites" (aka "Save to Faves"). Find reviewers or raters you like, and save them. Their recent activity (ratings and reviews only - nothing else) will show up prominently on the Community Home page. Even if you don't use Friends, this is a simple, less invasive way to personalize your Netflix site experience.
Is a feature I think I could use.
Anon is correct. You can protect your own privacy-- how you are seen (and whether you are seen)-- but your friends cannot "protect" you.
But remember: Judy can change her nickname as often as she'd like -- in case too many people recognized her and she didn't want to be. But more importantly - it's impossible for Butch to tell the difference between a Friend, a Fave and a Fan -- meaning (and this is a bit of a fallback position) that he may recognize Judy, but one could always claim she's just saved him as a Fave, and not a Friend. Plausible deniability? Anyway, sorry if this poses a serious problem. I've found it very fun to play with and i've discovered lots of interesting movies (and people) along the way.
Why can't I have friends who aren't paid up members of Netflix?
I have a bunch of friends who like movies, enjoy reviewing films and sharing reviews with friends, but can't seem to get over the hump to paying $4.99 per month to subscribe to DVDs. They say their DVD watching habits are too erratic for a subscription.
Why not offer those willing to write at least five reviews helpful to others to get a free log-in and they could get access to the reviews and the ability to invite friends and share information about favorite films? This would build the review archive and introduce potential members to the benefits of the service without having to pay right off the bat.
Some of these Netflix fence-sitters have said they would pay less than $4.99 ($1.99 or $2.99 a month) to have access to Watch Now streaming hours (with additional hours payable a la carte), the friends functionality, and ability to access and write Netflix reviews/ratings. Maybe you could throw in one DVD a month for good measure for this kind of starter package. I suggest you at least test a $1.99-$2.99 limited package and see what the reaction is. If Netflix doesn't lower the entry price point, I think iTunes rentals will soon force the issue.
I'm with Anonymous.
Do Not Want.
Way to kill a cool feature, Netflix.
@anonymous:
"Maybe you could throw in one DVD a month for good measure for this kind of starter package. I suggest you at least test a $1.99-$2.99 limited package and see what the reaction is. If Netflix doesn't lower the entry price point, I think iTunes rentals will soon force the issue. "
First, I don't want to see NON_members reviewing/posting. By having only paying members, I find I can lend more merit to reviews.
I like the features, for sure. But I've noticed that the more features added, the SLOWER Netflix's site gets. For a power user like me, seconds seems like hours. :-)
@Pamela - I agree that the community features should only be allowed by paying customers. If Netflix allows non-paying people to "critique" reviews and other things on Netflix it will open up a whole new can of worms,by having more flaming and sometimes worse. By only allowing paying customers, Netflix knows everyone and can determine who is the culprit and kick them off. If your not paying, someone can make up alot of false information, if they get removed, then they can just add another account.
Even if you keep the price plan as is, you may want to allow "Pay per movie" or even have a pay per movie for instant movies only.
I think the price plan is very competitive if you think about it. The 4.99 plan allows 2 movies a month + 5 hours of instant viewing. Assuming that a movie is roughly 1.5 hours you can watch 3 movies instantly a month. At what I tunes is charging $0.99 per movie, you are paying the same price if you get 5 per month.
So, by setting your profile to private does this prevent friends from seeing this your other friends (or that you have other friends)? There should be a way to tweak it to prevent friends from seeing your other friends, how many friends you have, etc. It really isn't anyone's business, is it?
You've been (deliberately?) vague on this aspect, Michael.
And we should be able to customize our privacy setting.
For instance - I want my ratings and reviews to be PUBLIC
But I want my friends to be PRIVATE.
That's not unreasonable, is it?
When I invited my friends to be friends on Netflix, I never bargained for this. This ridiculous business was never part of the deal.
I think this whole bad idea needs more time and work, Michael.
"Judy can change her nickname as often as she'd like -- in case too many people recognized her and she didn't want to be."
So, if you change your nickname, it removes you from everyone's Faves list?
I appreciate the privacy note in the email. Thats a step in the right direction anyway. Not sure why you only sent the email to Friends users though, won't this change effect all users?
I do agree with others that you should be adding more preference settings, not removing them.
Is it just me, or do the people that make the most noise and are the most visible on this site kick and scream about "privacy"? If you are that concerned about the casual user being able to see that you (under an anon nick) gave Dr. Strangelove (for example) 5 stars and a glowing review that almost exceeds the 2,000 character limit, then why bother contributing at all? Is the review just for your personal enjoyment? Are you putting that much thought into a complete review of a film so that your old college roomate in Tulsa, OK (and only him/her) knows how you feel about this film? It seems to be a common complaint that shouts its hypocritical origins to the rafters. By taking advantage of Community features on Netflix, you are knowingly entering into a community. If "privacy" is that important (let's say... witness protection program) then why not just email your reviews or thoughts on film to your friends directly and avoid this conflict completely?
I certainly respect everyone's right to complete privacy and anonimity, however, by joining a website's community section (one which exists solely to connect avid movie fans with others of similar tastes to enrich their personal cinematic experience) you are actively engaging in said community. It seems fairly straightforward to me and I guess I just don't see what all the fuss is about.
At any rate, I am personally very excited about the launch of these additions to the Community section this weekend. Michael and crew @ Netflix have done an amazing job of keeping us aware of all website changes and accepted a tremendous amount of feedback from users to ensure these changes are put into place with the best interests of the Community at large being the top priority. Kudos for all the continued hard work and I am more than certain that the sky is not falling.
It seems there is clearly one unanswered question, Michael:
If you choose to have a private profile, can your Friends see your list of Friends, Favs, and Fans? Or will they just have the current Friends experience?
I believe that if setting your profile to private meant that no one (even your Friends) could see the list of users connected to you, it would greatly ease the minds of those with privacy concerns.
@privacy lover: Reviews are public by nature. I believe that if you write reviews but have a private profile, your reviews will appear on the movie pages along with your anonymous username, avatar, and similarity percentage... but people won't be able to click on your name to go to your profile page.
privacy lover -- exactly right.
"But they're only nicknames" is not sufficient. "They're indistinguishable from fans and favorites" is not sufficient. Obfuscation that depends upon the actions of others IS NOT PRIVACY.
Forcing a system-wide all-or-nothing privacy choice REDUCES FUNCTIONALITY and ERASES EXISTING CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE COMMUNITY.
Michael -- sorry I'm not agog over your latest stuff, but these new features expose information (by default) that was not visible before, and the only "opt out" method smacks of a shunning, relegating anyone who doesn't like the additional information disclosure to a lesser site and refusing their participation.
And I have to wonder, if Netflix doesn't think this reduced privacy is a big deal, what other information that's now private will be made public in the future under threat of reduced functionality?
The thing about sharing, Michael, is that it's supposed to be VOLUNTARY. Hiding my reviews because I don't want to expose my friends list may be an oversight, but a flippant "sorry if this is a serious problem, but I think it's great" response doesn't say anything positive about your concern for paying customers.
I'm going to step away from my normal tone and ask a question to those concerned about the opening up of ratings and reviews to the community while protected by anonymity. I ask this because I'm honestly curious... no seriously:
What are you afraid of? Is there something specific you want to hide? I'm trying to be empathetic to your concerns, but I'm having a very difficult time understanding your concerns.
I think that if Michael and the others here knew, exactly, what you are actually worried about (rather than just complaining nonspecifically about the anonymous revelation of information that you feel is private), we might be able to come up with a solution that makes you more comfortable but also allows those of us who want to participate in the orgy of free movie love to do so in a more rich community.
If you choose to have a private profile, can your Friends see your list of Friends, Favs, and Fans? Or will they just have the current Friends experience?
First of all, i'm surprised that y'all think i'm being evasive in some way; i think i'm pretty responsive here. But okay; first question. Yes. If I am private but have Friends, those Friends will see a pile of people who are Friends, Faves and Fans. They won't know who is who. And I probably won't have Fans (if i'm private, it would be hard to imagine). But yes, they see alot. They already see a lot. Your rental history and queue are arguably the most private info you could display. But yes, Friends members is too, and while anonymous, they will be somewhat viewable by other Friends.
As for other questions: certainly, more privacy settings and nuance is ideal. Everyone should be able to set a range of viewing and exposure elements. But the fact is that the majority of people do NOT set these things, and the most important element is the default state. A system HAS to work for most people in the default state. If it does, then we can begin to implement shades. If this is a step in the right direction, we'll continue improving it. If its hardly used and not that interesting, we won't. So try it and let me know. And as AngelMonkey said, be specific with what is the problem so i can address it; i really would like to understand what kind of scenarios cause you concern with your Friends, strangers, and your movie ratings and so on. I appreciate your debate here. You've got until the weekend to decide if you'd like to try this or not. (Of course, you can also change your mind).
Post Script:
Hiding my reviews because I don't want to expose my friends list may be an oversight...
And this is wrong. If you are private, your reviews are all still visible in numerous locations on the site, and no stranger will be able to see your profile or Friends lists. You won't be able to made a Favorite by anyone. You're right - you SHOULD be able to write reviews and not expose your friends. That's in the design. I have every expectation this will work nicely.
@Baff - If your friend changes nicknames like they change their clothes, it shouldn't remove them from your friends list. You added them by email address not by their nickname. So it should just show their new nickname.
I agree Michael that you should start with a yes or no function, and then people would like to customize their privacy more then you should begin to impliment the customizations more. As a programmer its easier to start with yes and no functions, and then begin to get more deep into branches like if this happends then go here, or here or here. Its too much of work and effort to implement shady areas if no one is going to use it. YOu would want to concentrate on areas for the community not 1 or 2 people. That is why using these blogs are good, it allows the Netflix community let you know how they feel and allows people engaging more. People may agree with some ideas and not with others. They may thing, "THats a good idea anonymous, i never thought of it that way. Netflix, is it possable to do what Anonymous said?".
Also there there is no way to be completely removed from the community unless the only thing you do is rent movies, and do not add friends or write reviews.
Is there something specific you want to hide?
I can't speak for the others, but for me: Not a thing. I would actually like to have most of the features discussed recently (though there are features that I want far more).
I argue about this for 2 reasons.
1) Principle. I want Netflix to do the right thing. And as someone else said, if Netflix is willing to hand out this info, what personal info will they be giving out next month? There are already a plethora of malevolent people/companies on net who have no respect for our privacy. I do not want to see Netflix join their ranks.
2) Legality. Netflix is toeing the line with these features. I am a fan of Netflix and and have invested a lot of time rating movies (18,663), and I really don't want to see Netflix getting taken to court on privacy issues. Such a case would have the potential to cost Netflix billions of dollars, which they don't have. I don't think any of us want to see Netflix go out of business.
It is against the law for Michael to say "Baff rented Bambi from Netflix." Its a very fine line between "Baff rented Bambi from Netflix" and "Baff rated Bambi."
The law for anyone wanting to read it: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002710----000-.html
Its our privacy, we have a right to keep it or expose it. It is not Netflix's to do with as they please. The fact that everyone's personal information will be exposed by default is the problem.
There are many people who have unknowingly opted into the community and will have their personal info displayed for anyone to see (actually it already is displayed, this will just be displaying more of it).
There are many people who are far from anonymous in Netflix for a wide variety of reasons. Accident, ex-spouse, ex-lover, ex-friend, ex trusted coworker or schoolmate, someone that looked at your computer or at a Friend's computer, a Friend told someone. And so many other possible reasons, use your imagination, its not hard to come up with 100+ scenarios of someone's anonymity being blown.
Making our Friends public is just 1 more way for our anonymity to be compromised.
Michael didn't answer my question, so I will assume that if you change your nickname, everyone that has marked you as a Fave will still be able to see you just fine. That seemed like the only option for regaining anonymity if it was lost. Michael, please correct me on this if I am wrong.
I'm sorry to hear that the weekend update is getting mixed reviews (3 stars, if you will) but I think this is a really great discussion and I would encourage those of you who are concerned about your privacy to facilitate future enhancements to the system.
I may post on the privacy issue later, but right now I have a question that's been bugging me for a while, and it relates to rankings:
*Is ranking or influence affected in any way by the number of reviews I have found to be helpful or not helpful? it seems to me that if the ranking system is trying to identify the most helpful/most read reviewers, that encouraging people to vote reviews up or down would help the system along. It seemed like a stupid question to me, but I've been looking and I haven't found the answer. Alas, now its your stupid question.
:)
Michael said"
"You've got until the weekend to decide if you'd like to try this or not. (Of course, you can also change your mind)."
I'd like not to try this. So, if I don't want my friends to see each other starting this weekend, my only option is to drop all of my friends? Is this the only way to "decide not to try this"?
Sort of. If you decide not to try it, go to the site today and make yourself PRIVATE. Your reviews will still be on the site. You will still have Friends. No strangers will be able to see you, or your Friends. You will have no Fans. And browsers on the site will see nothing of you. But yes, your Friends will be able to see that you have other (anonymous) friends - unless they too have made themselves private. If everyone who doesn't want to be seen makes themselves private, they won't be seen - even by Friends of their Friends. If this isn't sufficient, then yes, you need to drop out of Friends. Or at least disconnect from those Friends who you aren't close enough with to allow them to see that you have other Friends.
I don't understand everyone's problems, and it really seems to me that some people are making a big deal out of a nondeal. Netflix created a thing called Friends and now they are changing it. If you don't like it, don't use it. What's the big deal? Complain about privacy all you want, you can still opt to use this or not. I don't understand why someone would care if I had any friends, it's not like they can really tell who they are or send them notes or anything, right?
I think people are just picking a fight for no good reason. This sounds totally interesting and is a good improvement to what had been, in my opinion, a pretty dull part of Netflix.
It sounds like some people liked Friends the old way and this is just sour grapes about it changing in a way they don't like. Then don't use it!
Wow, Michael. I can't believe that you guys are doing this. I had a lot of respect for Netflix, I thought that this was one of the few commercial sites that had integrity.
It's a shame that we don't really have any choice in this matter. Either expose our friends to each other (nicknames are usually not anonymous, buddy), or delete all of our friends. And we aren't allowed to have a public profile, unless we show everyone who our friends are.
Sounds like a raw deal to me.
I'm going to notify websites that are concerned with privacy and electronic freedom, and let them know what's going on over here.
I must be missing something.. I can't find my friend's friends, faves or fans. Where is this feature?! I've been waiting for this feature for ages! Has this been temporarily nixed while you work out the privacy concerns?
@anonymous with the idea to give non paying members access to write reviews & such-I can see major probs with this idea-something we have discussed in the past is a concern about people flagging other people just to get them lower on the lists and pretty much bogus reporting/flaming. My thoughts were-we all pay for the use of Netflix-why would we do that if we could lose our accounts because of it. YIKES if we have people who aren't paying members hangin around!
@baff: OK, I totally respect arguing something on principle, and like you, I'd hate if it Netflix got itself into legal issues. However, our opinions differ on both counts.
1) On principle, I don't think Netflix is doing anything shady or wrong. I don't think they're violating privacy. I feel that they're being very careful to make sure everyone stays completely anonymous to everyone but their chosen Friends, and that they're allowing people to remain private if that isn't enough. Yes, Netflix cannot stop someone from making their username their real name or uploading a picture of themselves as their avatar. But I don't think Netflix should be responsible for policing anonymity for people who don't desire it. And if you're friends with someone who you don't feel is "anonymous" for you, remove that specific friend... or have a chat with them and ask them to please make their username and avatar more ambiguous.
2) I took a look at the law and I don't think the line between "Jane rentend Bambi" and "Jane rated Bambi" is fine at all. They are clearly completely different sets of information and though I'm not a lawyer, I don't see how Netflix would be at any legal risk.
To those who are sad that they can't continue to have Friends without those Friends being able to see your other (anonymous) Friends... the Friends system has always been based on full disclosure. That's why they get to see your Queue, Rental History, and your REAL name. Heck, they even know how much you pay for your service because they can see which rental plan you have. You really shouldn't be Friends with someone that you don't want to share everything with... because that's not what the feature is or ever was intended for. This has not changed.
Also... seriously... we're talking about movie opinions here, not your name, address, and social security number. The concern that this is some kind of "slippery slope" for Netflix to expose actual private information at a later date is pretty absurd, in my opinion.
Pricing-You will never hear me complain about pricing. At the rate I watch movies-i'm sure Netflix cringes! I even drop by my local store to pick up extra movies when I can or have the cash for it. When you gotta pay over 4 bucks for a new release at most places-NETFLIX is so much more affordable! Add in the watch it now feature-even better! They've got cheap plans for people who don't watch as many movies also. So don't blame netflix for the people out there who are too cheap to pay for a great service!
As for long wait movies-hardly ever happens to me. If i have a movie that's coming out soon on dvd & i really really want to see it right away-i add to my list really early-at the top or very close to it. It generally gets to me right away-i've never had to wait a long time for a movie. (a long time to me would be more than a week.)
@Angelmonkey-5 stars dude! That pretty much sums up everything right there-way to go!
Angelmonkey, in regards to your full disclosure argument, this is a site about movies, not relationships. The point of the friends feature was to share information that is relevant to renting movies with each other, not to reveal to our friends who our other friends are, or whether or not we have friends at all. And for once and for all, please stop referring to our friends as "anonymous", many people use nicknames that could make them easily identifiable to others on one's friend list.
It's not wrong to expect Netflix to not violate our privacy. Privacy should always be a top priorty on a website such as this.
Wrong again. The 'friends' pact that we all signed-off on originally isn't changing - namely that when BOTH parties sign-on to be each others friends then they can both see each other's 'real name' (ie the one on our account), queue, recent activity, etc. Everyone else who "sees our friends" (a very confusing phrase) will only 'see them' as 'Punkrockerbabe', or whatever, just as they do now if they write reviews; and that hardly seems to be a heinous betrayal of our privacy. If they chose to use a 'real world' nickname, then they've voluntarily and unnecessarily compromised their own privacy, which Netflix can do nothing about except go "HUH?", as we all do.
@last anonymous: You're correct, it isn't wrong to expect Netflix not to violate our privacy. I would be up in arms if they were. I just don't believe that they are.
And I already addressed your issue with the fact that "many people use nicknames that could make them easily identifiable to others on one's friend list." in my previous post under #1. Please re-read it.
I refer to the profile names as anonymous because they are anonymous. If you hear the report of an "anonymous tipster" on a newscast with disguised voice... they're anonymous. However, that doesn't mean there aren't people out there who might know who the person is. Similarly, just because some people that you know in real life can identify you by your username and avatar doesn't mean that your profile isn't anonymous.
And finally, you're right, this is a site about movies... which is why adding features to make it easier to find movies you might love is a good thing. The only reason the relationship is at all relevant is because it implies that you might have similar movie tastes... so if I tend to agree with your ratings... maybe I'll agree with this other person's ratings too.
Angelmonkey, another anonymous poster above has already perfectly summed up the problem with argument your argument in #1:
"Obfuscation that depends upon the actions of others IS NOT PRIVACY"
Amen to that.
The only situation in which "Obfuscation that depends upon the actions of others" would need to occur is with your Friends -- in order to stop your Friends from knowing who your other Friends are. As I mentioned above, Netflix has never maintained privacy where Friends are concerned and I wouldn't expect them to start now.
As a matter of fact, Netflix has been very good to add privace features between Friends where it was not required:
- Allowing users to hide specific movies from their Friends.
- Not distinguishing between Friends, Favs, and Fans on your profile page.
Angel, privacy should be a given and it should be something that the user should have the freedom to customize.
Obviously you don't have a problem with your friends seeing your other friends, but you can imagine that others might, right? What floats your boat might create problems for somebody else.
Are these concerns not legitimate just because you don't share them?
Netflix shouldn't inflict these pretty radical changes on all of us until all of the privavy isses are ironed out. It might take a few weeks, but wouldn't it be worth it?
Life is full of compromises, and occasionally a few people suffer for the greater good of the whole. If you don't like the proposed changes, that's certainly unfortunate and unfair to you, but you surely can't expect Netflix not to roll out a feature that they think will, overall, make their site (note 'THEIR' site) more interesting and productive for the vast majority of 'Friends' users just because a few people are squawking? If it's a flop they'll abandon it, and move on. As we suggest you do now.
This isn't about my preference at all. You're right. Privacy should be a given... and it is. Friends is an opt-in feature. You have to choose your Friends, and when you do you are opting in to sharing private information with them. Privacy has never been a part of Friends, so I'd hardly call it a radical change. If Netflix wants to add more privacy customization features to Friends, more power to them - I think it's a great idea - but it's not their responsibility.
I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot here.
An outward-facing friends page is a pretty radical change, IMO.
An outward-facing friends page is a pretty radical change, IMO.
I wonder if some concern about friends, friends of friends, etc seeing each others movies could be the type of movies someone rents. What comes to my mind is perhaps if some friends happen to have some alternative life style and others are not tolerant of that. If that's the case there is always the private feature for movies you rent. So you can keep any soft porn, gay etc movies totally private that were rented and if you wish to share those with some friends leave them notes on it.
I think with the movies private feature and the profile private feature Netflix has gone even further than it had to to help keep things private while still encouraging sharing of reviews and ratings.
"I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot here".
There are none so deaf as those that will not hear!
First off, thanks Angelmonkey for responding to everyone. For legal reasons, Michael cannot directly respond to most of this. If you can show our concerns to be baseless, awesome! I really don't expect that to happen, but there are compromises that could solve many of the issues.
Also... seriously... we're talking about movie opinions here
The movie opinions are mostly irrelevant.
The law is meant to prevent movie rental companies from giving out info about what movies their customers watch. I don't see much difference between "These are the movies Bob rented" and "These are the movies that Bob told us in confidence that he has seen."
To clarify, earlier I didn't mean to imply that Netflix has ill will towards its customers, simply "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
Similarly, just because some people that you know in real life can identify you by your username and avatar doesn't mean that your profile isn't anonymous.
Actually, it means exactly that. I'm not referring to Friends, I mean that partial list I gave in another post (ex-spouses, people who just happen to look at your Friend's computer, etc, etc.)
People do not guard their Netflix Nicknames like they guard their SS# or credit cards, etc. Why? Because, until recently all it was tied to was our reviews. A lot of people felt perfectly comfortable with others being able to link their real name to their reviews, and naturally so. But, just because they want their reviews linked to their name, doesn't mean they want every movie they have ever seen linked to their name.
A nickname system will never be completely anonymous, simply because Netflix does not really have control over who does or does not know our nickname.
For comparison, the Movies You'll Love system is completely anonymous. Netflix processes all of our data and then provides us with recommendations without even the vaguest hint of who's information it was based on. When I rated 18,000+ movies, it was with the understanding that was the only use it would be put to.
On the subject of Faves/Fans/Friends: On the first day this is released, everyone shown will be a Friend. In order for there to be some question about who is a Fave, Fan, or Friend, the Faves feature needs to be released a month (or whatever) before the page showing everyone's Faves/Fans/Friends.
If Netflix wants to add more privacy customization features to Friends, more power to them - I think it's a great idea - but it's not their responsibility.
Then who's responsibility is it?
I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot here.
So, does that mean you are ready to concede defeat? ;P
Let's say you really love this beach near your home. It's a great place. You've been going for years. Then today you see a sign posted on the beach. It says that starting this weekend, it will be a nude beach. Clothing will not be allowed.
Many people don't mind. Should be fun. Maybe more people will come here, since it will be the only nude beach for miles. But you're angry. How dare they do this to you! This was where you liked to go and now you have NO CHOICE but to get naked to come here. It should be illegal! You want to come here in your suit. That should be allowed. How about "clothing optional" you cry. But the powers-that-be tell you that clothing optional actually changes things for all the nudists. Sorry. Think about it all week, but on Saturday, if you're here, you're naked.
Are the beach owners outside their right to change the rules? Do you have some kind of inalienable right to wear a suit here? But you are rightfully angry - the beach you loved is changing. You might like it, but you are unwavering, and choose to be angry. It is changing, that's for sure. And you will miss the old thing you loved, and that's true too. But it is neither illegal nor unjust. You've got fair warning, and no one is making you stay here. No one is making you get naked. It might feel like they are insisting on your nudity, but the fact is that you are free to stay or go. In good faith they are hoping to make their beach better -- safer, friendlier, cleaner -- and they hope you'll stay.
Doesn't that about sum it up?
Thanks to you too, Baff. Clearly, there is much to debate and we don't see eye to eye on many of the issues. We do, however, seem to agree that the best course would be compromises that will leave as many people as possible comfortable with the new features.
And to respond to your final question: "Then whose responsibility is it?": It's no-one's responsibility. Because it's entirely opt-in, Friends doesn't have to have any privacy features if Netflix doesn't want it to. It may not be the best decision to go this route, but it's certainly their prerogative.
... and to the previous commenter. Amusing analogy. The only part that's off is that Netflix actually is allowing "clothing-optional" with the ability to keep your profile private.
Cheers.
Ha! To further the nude beach analogy, just for fun... problems seem to be for the following scenarios:
1) I want to be able to go topless, but keep my bikini bottoms on!
2) I don't mind if my Friends see me naked... but I don't want my Friends to know that I let others see me naked!
=P
OK, Angelmonkey, now I'll need to know where this beach is. Just to fully understand your argument, you understand.
this comment is for michael -
you claim that you haven't been evasise yet it took you until today to finally admit that one would have to delete their friends in order to truly opt-out of this foolish "outward-facing" friends feature
you've been beating around the bush about this ever since you first made the
announcement
and even now when faced with the direct question you begin with "sort of" and continue to take the roundabout way before finally admitting that yes, in order to not reveal your friends to your other friends, one would have to quit his or her participation in the friends feature entirely
you're asking a lot of us, you could at least be forthcoming & non-evasive
Sheesh, you make it sound like Michael is personally evicting you and your family from your home, or something. Would love to know what mutually annihilating worlds are about to collide in your life to prompt this totally disproportionate reaction.
Michael,
When these changes take place will the reviews stop disappearing? It is frustrating that Sometimes my reviews are there, sometimes the last couple will be missing, sometimes they are all gone. Sometimes if I log in on Firefox I have no reviews. If I log in on IE there they are. A couple of other posters on the blog have mentioned this and I'm pretty sure it's associated with server down time but it is sooooo often and annoying.
Will this get better in the future?
Michael said,
“But more importantly - it's impossible for Butch to tell the difference between a Friend, a Fave and a Fan -- meaning (and this is a bit of a fallback position) that he may recognize Judy, but one could always claim she's just saved him as a Fave, and not a Friend. Plausible deniability?”
That assumes doesn’t it that there’s anyone but friends on your page. I have three. It’s going to be pretty hard to convince them that the others are just fans. And now I have to add lying to the list of “work-arounds” I have to use to get features working the way I expect them to?
Jaymikey,
Look at the side bar then refer back to previous posts on community/social networks. Even now it isn’t clear what you are getting into by “joining” this community. And it wasn’t a “community,” whatever that still means, when I first started rating movies, added a few friends, posted my first reviews, began building lists. It seems every time I turn around some new erosion of privacy revealed. As I did with ‘friends notes,’ I’m being forced reassess and analyze all the ins and outs and may have to stop using yet more features I enjoyed just because someone doesn’t think it all that important that I maintain control of what I keep private and what I share. I feel like I’m being told to take it or leave it. If things don’t improve I will have no choice.
“I certainly respect everyone's right to complete privacy and anonimity, however, by joining a website's community section (one which exists solely to connect avid movie fans with others of similar tastes to enrich their personal cinematic experience) you are actively engaging in said community.”
That’s not a community you’re describing, that’s a social network. The “community” is supposed to connect us to movies, not people. Even if you haven’t missed all the posts on the community/network issue, I don’t blame you for your confusion.
AngleMonkey,
“I think that if Michael and the others here knew, exactly, what you are actually worried about (rather than just complaining nonspecifically about the anonymous revelation of information that you feel is private,,,”
There it is… “information you feel is private…” That is all the explanation you should need. Someone, or some several someone’s by the sound of it, feel that certain information should be private and we have lost or are going to lose control over that. And instead of respecting that as you claim, we get demands for specifics and justification. It’s none of your business. All I know is that I want complete control over my privacy settings and I’ve been a happy member of several cyber-communities that routinely allow me this. I can choose for every single feature how much I want to reveal and rest assured that nothing is going to change that, that there will be no surprises or changes made in the future to undermine that basic trust.
Chawk,
“I think with the movies private feature and the profile private feature Netflix has gone even further than it had to to help keep things private while still encouraging sharing of reviews and ratings.
I think Netflix has gone further than it had to toward forcing me to drop more and more features I loved. Wasn’t there a post earlier about preserving functionality and services for people while making careful changes. This isn’t that.
AngleMonkey,
“And to respond to your final question: "Then whose responsibility is it?": It's no-one's responsibility..”
It’s completely Netflix’s responsibility if for no other reason than because they want our business. I have no idea what percentage of their power users are being forced to opt-out of a service they loved until these new changes start rolling in, but I’m one of them. Features I enjoyed I can no longer use.
AngelMonkey completes the nude beach analogy…
“1) I want to be able to go topless, but keep my bikini bottoms on!”
“2) I don't mind if my Friends see me naked... but I don't want my Friends to know that I let others see me naked!”
Exactly. That means you got it now right?
Anon,
“Sheesh, you make it sound like Michael is personally evicting you and your family from your home, or something.”
No, he just sounds like someone who’s being ignored, ridiculed, and then finally deprived of a service he pays for, was using and enjoying, but can no longer use. He sounds like someone who can no longer trust a company he does business with to respect that relationship.
Could my friends see that I had other friends before? Could I see that they had other friends before?
What about now?
Am I wrong, or did a formerly one-to-one private feature just become a disclosure of social connections?
Netflix is a site about movies -- it's not a social network. FRIENDS ARE NOT MOVIES. I choose to share movie reviews when I write them, and I choose to share my movie tastes and my queue with my friends. Just stuff about movies -- not stuff about who I know, who I might have things in common with, or whether I'm a social creature at all. SUDDENLY FRIENDS IS ABOUT MORE THAN MOVIES.
Now this would be less of a problem if the Friends feature had never existed, but here's the thing -- it does, and some of us use it, to share stuff about MOVIES with INDIVIDUALS. But that feature's being taken away, replaced with something that discloses more than just what movies I do or don't like. So if I'm not okay with Netflix being about more than just movies, Netflix has just become LESS USEFUL.
This shouldn't be some impenetrable mystery -- it's as simple as this: sharing what movies a person likes is not the same as sharing WHO a person likes.
And here's the kicker: you don't have to understand WHY people feel the distinction is important, only that people DO feel the distinction is important.
Privacy is a sensitive issue. I feel that, while Netflix is allowing me to maintain privacy, they're not doing enough to understand or respect it. The message is "we'll share whatever we feel like sharing about you, and if you don't like it, be happy that we let you withdraw."
Friends was a useful feature. Now it is a feature I cannot use. It's a net loss of functionality.
Netflix profit depends on Netflix customers being HAPPY with Netflix service.
I AM NOT HAPPY. And I am not alone.
Give me the ability to keep Friends as a one-to-one function.
This is odd. I posted a question last night and saw it at the bottom of the page and now it's gone. Guess I'll try again.
If I remove a friend from my Preferences page, will that automatically remove me from his/her friends page?
Also, when the Preferences button is removed, how will I be able to remove friends or rename them?
@"just friends":
You said "And here's the kicker: you don't have to understand WHY people feel the distinction is important, only that people DO feel the distinction is important."
I've been staying out of this (very heated) argument, but I wanted to respond to this statement, if only because nobody else has yet. I, for one, completely disagree with this. Netflix most certainly does need to understand the distinction you're making. How can you expect Netflix (or anyone else creating a product/service) to grant your wishes without understanding the true nature of your concern?
As a software developer, it is paramount for me to understand my users and the features they request or "need". Often times, what they say they want is not really what they want, and once we understand what they're getting at, we can provide an alternative solution that ultimately satisfies them completely. But you can't do that if you just allow your users to go kicking and screaming without justification.
Now, I'm not saying that's what's happening in this case. I think the privacy lovers are presenting well thought-out arguments and are providing enough context without specifically stating their personal issues with revealing such info. But I just take issue with saying that Netflix should bend to our demands "just because we're not happy". If they were to implement every feature that every user (or group of users) wanted just because they stomped their feet loud enough, their site would be a mess. Again, I'm not saying this is a petty issue - just one that needs to be thoroughly understood by both sides...
okay michael, who gets a bullet, I mean, who is responsible for every new release immediately going to very long wait?
Hi,
I love the "Friends Tab", but why is the information so inaccurate now? Back when this feature was first released, I could see *exactly* what my friends had at home, the order of entries in their queue, etc... Now, this information seems to be outdated or inaccurate.
I'd like to reiterate what Shaun said and ask my question again:
What are you afraid of? Is there something specific you want to hide? I'm trying to be empathetic to your concerns, but I'm having a very difficult time understanding your concerns.
Many people have responded to this question with, "I shouldn't have to be specific... I just feel that my privacy has been violated and that should be enough." That certainly is reason enough for me and Netflix to have concern about the feature, but not enough to actually come up with any kind of proper solution to the problem. You're dodging the question. How can we all come up with a compromise that works if we don't know what is making you uncomfortable?
In order to quell the fears of people who want to be able to maintain their Friends without allowing them to see other Friends... I'd like to propose that setting your profile to "private" would make it so that no one, not even your Friends, could see the list of people connected to you.
Hopefully, this would be a relatively simple modification that would at least allow Netflix users the ability to keep on using Friends as they always have with no change. Granted, it still doesn't solve the issue of "I want to go topless but keep my bottoms on" and the array of privacy options that would be required to achieve that (perhaps that can be added at a later date?)... but it does solve the problem for people who feel they are being forced to withdraw from a feature they enjoy in its current incarnation.
i'VE EMAILED YOU ABOUT THIS ISSUE BUT IT REMAINS UNCHANGED -- I WROTE A REVIEW, BUT IT WAS REMOVED FROM THE SITE:
SUGAR (2005)
ThiS "INSTANT WATCH" LINK is not Sugar (2005) directed by Patrick Jolley and Reynold Reynolds (experimental horror film); it is Sugar (2004), directed by John Palmer, a far less experimental film, it concerns a gay teen who takes up with a young hustler.
CALLING CUSTOMER CARE HOOKED ME UP WITH AN IDIOT WHO HATES THE JOB HE IS UNDERQUALIFIED FOR!
ANYONE WHO TRIES TO "INSTANT WATCH" THIS MOVIE WILL BE P.O.'ED...CAN'T ANYBODY GIVE THIS ISSUE PROPER ATTENTION?
I'm not sure that the detractors necessarily have a specific scenario in mind. They just don't like having the goalposts moved on them, resulting in stuff that they thought was private suddenly becoming public (however innocuous we might think that stuff is), and that's surely understandable? Even if they can't honestly expect Netflix to alter course half-way through a product launch based on that discomfort. Michael has made it very clear that the only thing that he can really afford to pay attention to is site activity, not our plaintiff cries, so only a mass exodus from friends/community can turn this ship around. So for now let's either try to enjoy the ride, or hop into a life raft and sail away. There'll be plenty of time for fine tuning once it's clear what works and what doesn't, and those that want to duck and cover while that's going on can disappear using the privacy option. Unsatisfactory enough for everyone?
Michael's been quiet - I'm hoping that as I write this Netflix is performing somne last-minute tweaking on the new release to address our privacy concerns.
In the light of all these serious objections, it's my opinion that rolling out this new release without new measures added to ensure privacy would be in bad faith.
Mike,
“I'm not sure that the detractors necessarily have a specific scenario in mind.”
They do. They have had. Some of the scenarios can be found and happily dismissed as ‘innocuous’ in previous posts. I see no point in repeating them or adding to them so they can be ignored as well. The only thing developers need to understand is that users don’t want their privacy levels to change unless they specifically seek out a new service or function and change their settings in order to access it. That way those who don’t seek out the new feature never have to worry about erosion of privacy, and those who do have clearly accepted the changes to their levels of privacy.
“They just don't like having the goalposts moved on them, resulting in stuff that they thought was private suddenly becoming public (however innocuous we might think that stuff is), and that's surely understandable?”
Exactly, I wish you hadn’t used the ‘?’ there because I would hope that above all else that would be understandable, but at least you seem to grasp the crux of the situation. I should be the sole judge of what is innocuous when it comes to a change in my privacy. That is where Netflix is going wrong.
“Even if they can't honestly expect Netflix to alter course half-way through a product launch based on that discomfort.”
I joined this conversation late and only just caught up last night. But I’m not sure, even if I had been here when these changes were being considered that I would have been given a chance to warn them and request they not undermine user control of their privacy. All I recall from earlier posts are some hints of a big change but no indication that privacy was certain to be effected.
It’s too bad that no one saw this coming. It’s too bad that maintaining privacy isn’t apparently one of the first hurtles developers are concerned with when an idea first gets proposed. If that were the case we wouldn’t have needed to go through this. There are a vast array of cool new features that could be introduced without altering the privacy levels of existing functions. I shouldn’t have to carefully track and assess how each new features might affect my privacy on each and every roll-out. I should be able to trust that new features that affect privacy will be “opt-in” and I’ll only have to assess how they might affect me if I choose to participate in them.
“There'll be plenty of time for fine tuning once it's clear what works and what doesn't, and those that want to duck and cover while that's going on can disappear using the privacy option. Unsatisfactory enough for everyone?”
Yes it is very unsatisfactory. And thank you for at least not being obtuse in your assessment of the situation here.
"And thank you for at least not being obtuse in your assessment of the situation here".
Thanks, I try. No point being part of a blog if one can't at least make an attempt to listen as well as blab! But surely the word 'surely' connotes a question (even if a rhetorical one) that requires a ? - that's what I should have left out! Good luck trying to reach the infinitely more important ears of those that can actually do something about all this. I'd maybe suggest the Reed Hastings blog if you believe that Netflix is in serious danger of turning a fateful and irrevocable corner -- and you clearly do.
angelmonkey -- dodging the question? No, answering it:
What are you afraid of? Is there something specific you want to hide? None of your business. That's the nature of privacy.
Do I have something to hide? That's what I'm hiding.
What am I afraid of? That someone thinks I should tell them or they should know whether o